Good on you Luis. Thankyou for letting me know about this. At Melb Uni we confronted a few attitudes / responses that has got me thinking: Some are very open and keen to talk Some are apathetic about God. For them, the question of God is an academic one with little actual relevance to their lives. Us learning to stimulate / provoke interest is important. Atheism is growing. We found more of it at Melbourne Uni than I have before, and some students could articulate their worldview intelligently and confidently, even aggressively. Perhaps debates between people like John Lennox and Richard Dawkins could help raise some of the issues for our people. Quite a few, esp from science backgrounds, felt God to be 'a human construction' and that 'we create our own meaning'. So it'll be important to develop a response to this, both for it's direct use in evangelism and for our own peoples' sake. When our young people hit uni, etc, they can begin to think that they only believe in God because they have been socialised into it. When they are around people who nearly all believe something very different from what they've been taught, it can be very hard to hold onto their faith. And, as I said, they can begin to believe they only had that faith because of the influence of the significant people around them (by socialisation). I haven't yet read Rodney Stark, eg 'Discovering God', but suspect he will be helpful here. Pluralism (& relativism) is still present, especially amongst arts students (& of course others). Tim Keller's podcast 'Exclusivity' is quite good http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/exclusivity-how-can-there-be-just-one-true-religion I like the story of the four blind men and the elephant, although I use it the way Jon Dickson does in 'A Sneaking Suspicion' which is a bit different. In Christ Martin
You are truly "sincere" and I really admire your good intentions.
(from our previous conversation) One question. Are you capable of seeing the good in others that do not share your beliefs? Our history books tell different stories depending on who is telling it. Did things really happened the way they were written? Maybe yes, maybe no :). Both sides may be right, it is their own reality. What if you were adopted by a loving and caring Muslim family who took you to live to a mostly Muslim country and taught you about the Qur'an being the unaltered and the final revelation from God? That would have been your reality. You would probably still be preaching, but a different message. And I don't think God would punish you for being born were you were, but would cherish you being a good person (to you and others). God does not take sides, people manipulate history to make it look like He takes sides :). If there is a person that always lives right and helps other, would an all loving and merciful God punish them before they are Jewish or Muslim and not Christian??
Do I Recognize Jesus Christ as My Savior?http://www.elephantjournal.com/2011/09/do-i-recognize-jesus-christ-as-my-savior--jasmine-gill/
Regarding this article you said "God makes rain to pour upon good and bad, but that doesn't mean he is on the side of the bad/evil ones. "
I think God makes rain to pour upon good people and other good people :). I don't think he labels other people that do not know about Him (but practice his teachings without knowing) as "bad" or "evil". You and other human beings may make the labeling, but He is all love, isn't He? Would he allow salvation to someone who truly believes he is the only way to eternity but is very close minded to other people?
Does anybody in your church think about this??
This seems interesting too: Too Much Conviction - Reflections on the Problem of Evangelism http://www.jesusjazzbuddhism.org/too-much-conviction.html
I do see the good in other people's beliefs. But from a Christian perpective, all that goodness will not bring them eternal life. I guess that both, the goodness and eternal life must go hand in hand. And in the wisdom books of the Bible, we find such a "mistery" if you will, that things are up side down: "Ecle. 10:7 I have seen slaves on horseback, while princes go on foot like slaves."
Being borned in a Muslim country, well, God reveals himself to all at a point in their lives, so even so, I would have no excuse, "John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world."
And I guess, I would have to say yes to the question about somebody being good, regardless of the religion, God would condenm that person because he didn't do the one thing that God required to obtain eternal life, and that is accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, cf. Romans 10:10-11. How come something so easy is so difficult for people to do and follow. God has provided all, Jesus, salvation, yet people still believa that they can save themselves by their own bootstraps. If you ask me who is really showing pride, is the one that by trying to do "good works" is trying to buy God, as if He could be bought. Appalling.
You say that God doesn't label people, well, again, like I said in my video, this makes God as the pagan gods of Greece, Hinduism, and other religions, that contradicts Himself. Take a look at the Psalms "Psalm 5:4 For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness; with you, evil people are not welcome." "Psalm 34:16 but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to blot out their name from the earth." "Psalm 37:9 For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land."
Like I told you before, you seem to proyect God, even the God of the Bible, as an old man who will allow his children to do anything, and even if they do wrong, he will forgive them, no matter how bad they've been. That's not the God that Jesus revealed, the one he calles Father. Yes, he is loving, but he is also justice.
People in my church, and every single christian, from the beginning as I pointed out, believes this. The question would be why is such a rejection of this revelation. Do we know better than Jesus? If we do, why consider him a teacher then?
And yes, I have a lot of conviction of what I am saying, but so do you, in your position. Are you willing to give me a place in your inclusive universe? The conversation is indeed interesting. I will continue next week with the topic of relativism, hope you stay tune!
There is nothing to forgive. If you are good at heart God embraces you regardless of what humans may say. Do you mean all people in, let's say in a small village in Africa, are going to hell, even if there are some good people, because they have not been exposed to Jesus? I don't get it.
4 comments:
Good on you Luis. Thankyou for letting me know about this. At Melb Uni we confronted a few attitudes / responses that has got me thinking:
Some are very open and keen to talk
Some are apathetic about God. For them, the question of God is an academic one with little actual relevance to their lives. Us learning to stimulate / provoke interest is important.
Atheism is growing. We found more of it at Melbourne Uni than I have before, and some students could articulate their worldview intelligently and confidently, even aggressively. Perhaps debates between people like John Lennox and Richard Dawkins could help raise some of the issues for our people.
Quite a few, esp from science backgrounds, felt God to be 'a human construction' and that 'we create our own meaning'. So it'll be important to develop a response to this, both for it's direct use in evangelism and for our own peoples' sake. When our young people hit uni, etc, they can begin to think that they only believe in God because they have been socialised into it. When they are around people who nearly all believe something very different from what they've been taught, it can be very hard to hold onto their faith. And, as I said, they can begin to believe they only had that faith because of the influence of the significant people around them (by socialisation). I haven't yet read Rodney Stark, eg 'Discovering God', but suspect he will be helpful here.
Pluralism (& relativism) is still present, especially amongst arts students (& of course others). Tim Keller's podcast 'Exclusivity' is quite good http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/exclusivity-how-can-there-be-just-one-true-religion I like the story of the four blind men and the elephant, although I use it the way Jon Dickson does in 'A Sneaking Suspicion' which is a bit different.
In Christ
Martin
You are truly "sincere" and I really admire your good intentions.
(from our previous conversation)
One question. Are you capable of seeing the good in others that do not share your beliefs? Our history books tell different stories depending on who is telling it. Did things really happened the way they were written? Maybe yes, maybe no :). Both sides may be right, it is their own reality. What if you were adopted by a loving and caring Muslim family who took you to live to a mostly Muslim country and taught you about the Qur'an being the unaltered and the final revelation from God? That would have been your reality. You would probably still be preaching, but a different message. And I don't think God would punish you for being born were you were, but would cherish you being a good person (to you and others). God does not take sides, people manipulate history to make it look like He takes sides :). If there is a person that always lives right and helps other, would an all loving and merciful God punish them before they are Jewish or Muslim and not Christian??
Do I Recognize Jesus Christ as My Savior?http://www.elephantjournal.com/2011/09/do-i-recognize-jesus-christ-as-my-savior--jasmine-gill/
Regarding this article you said "God makes rain to pour upon good and bad, but that doesn't mean he is on the side of the bad/evil ones. "
I think God makes rain to pour upon good people and other good people :). I don't think he labels other people that do not know about Him (but practice his teachings without knowing) as "bad" or "evil". You and other human beings may make the labeling, but He is all love, isn't He? Would he allow salvation to someone who truly believes he is the only way to eternity but is very close minded to other people?
Does anybody in your church think about this??
This seems interesting too: Too Much Conviction - Reflections on the Problem of Evangelism
http://www.jesusjazzbuddhism.org/too-much-conviction.html
Hugs,
Your friend :)
I do see the good in other people's beliefs. But from a Christian perpective, all that goodness will not bring them eternal life. I guess that both, the goodness and eternal life must go hand in hand. And in the wisdom books of the Bible, we find such a "mistery" if you will, that things are up side down: "Ecle. 10:7 I have seen slaves on horseback, while princes go on foot like slaves."
Being borned in a Muslim country, well, God reveals himself to all at a point in their lives, so even so, I would have no excuse, "John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world."
And I guess, I would have to say yes to the question about somebody being good, regardless of the religion, God would condenm that person because he didn't do the one thing that God required to obtain eternal life, and that is accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, cf. Romans 10:10-11. How come something so easy is so difficult for people to do and follow. God has provided all, Jesus, salvation, yet people still believa that they can save themselves by their own bootstraps. If you ask me who is really showing pride, is the one that by trying to do "good works" is trying to buy God, as if He could be bought. Appalling.
You say that God doesn't label people, well, again, like I said in my video, this makes God as the pagan gods of Greece, Hinduism, and other religions, that contradicts Himself. Take a look at the Psalms "Psalm 5:4
For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness; with you, evil people are not welcome."
"Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to blot out their name from the earth."
"Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land."
Like I told you before, you seem to proyect God, even the God of the Bible, as an old man who will allow his children to do anything, and even if they do wrong, he will forgive them, no matter how bad they've been. That's not the God that Jesus revealed, the one he calles Father. Yes, he is loving, but he is also justice.
People in my church, and every single christian, from the beginning as I pointed out, believes this. The question would be why is such a rejection of this revelation. Do we know better than Jesus? If we do, why consider him a teacher then?
And yes, I have a lot of conviction of what I am saying, but so do you, in your position. Are you willing to give me a place in your inclusive universe? The conversation is indeed interesting. I will continue next week with the topic of relativism, hope you stay tune!
There is nothing to forgive. If you are good at heart God embraces you regardless of what humans may say. Do you mean all people in, let's say in a small village in Africa, are going to hell, even if there are some good people, because they have not been exposed to Jesus? I don't get it.
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